Stats surprises

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Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:47 am

I tend to look at stats of cricketers quite often.
Just for fun.

Occasionally I get surprised.

Today's surprise is the bowling average of Jeetan Patel.

Before this Test vs SA, he averaged 47.88 after 22 Tests.

Not sure if that's the worst bowling average for any bowler who's played at least 20 Tests (I remember Mohd Sami having an embarrassing average too!) but is Jeetan Patel then the best option NZ have?

Or is he like BCCI's Ishant Sharma? Keeps getting picked and you keep wondering why.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:51 am

Ok, Mohammad Sami.
36 Tests -> Bowling average of 52.74.
85 wickets -> SR 88.2.

And to think that he took 8 wickets for 106 runs in his first Test.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/co ... 41324.html

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:53 am

Compared to these two guys, Ishant has a very "respectable" average of 36.64 after 76 Tests.
Wow, he's played 76 Tests?

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:56 am

To be fair to Ishant, he does pick up the odd wicket with a bouncer or when the batsman is surprised by one that isn't pitched a yard outside off. Or leg.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:03 am

As a NZC fan I thought we'd finally got rid of Jeetan Patel.

His return is due to the lack of any good spinners in county cricket. Jeetan has been dominating in England county scene for a few years now. This has convinced our selectors that he's improved, when in fact English cricket has just gone backwards with regards spin bowling and batting ability to play spin bowling at their domestic level.

I for one would be happy to not see him ever again in a NZ shirt, and I'm quite against him being selected for the Champions Trophy in England in a few months ahead of Sodhi. In tests, I'd rathher see Todd Astle, let alone Santner, chosen ahead of him.
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Leo » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:05 am

What about Bangladeshi players??? :popcorn:
Time is the Best Speaker

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:14 am

Leo wrote:What about Bangladeshi players??? :popcorn:

Haven't checked their stats.
Any surprises there? :-)

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Leo » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:46 am

Check below 2 players. I don't think their stats show what kind of player actually they were

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 55988.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 55973.html
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:55 am

Well, I always considered Ashraful talented and entertaining - but he was about as consistent as Rohit Sharma. Who, by the way, also shares these qualities - talented and entertaining. :-)

Ashraful's average of 24 might not do justice to his talent - but it does full justice to his inconsistency. A Mushfiqur is far more consistent.

Mohd Rafique was a fine all-rounder. I rated him highly. Bangladesh's version of Vettori.
His figures, I agree, don't do justice to him.
A bowling average of 40? That's harsh!

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:23 am

Another surprise today.

The stats of Mike Gatting.

I always thought he ended his career with an average of 42-44 but it's only 35.55!!!

That's below average for a pure batsman (he used to bowl the odd over, but that hardly counts).

I remember him having a poor start to his career but I also remember him getting plenty of runs against India, including a double hundred.

When I checked now, I find that other than India, he didn't do much against any other team. On the flat Indian wickets of the 80s, when matches were largely snooze-fests, he thrived.

His record against West Indies is understandably poor. He, and others of that period (Gower, Botham, Lamb) ran into the best West Indian attack ever and only Lamb acquitted himself with any credit.

But even if you remove Gatting's stats against Windies, he averages only 38.79.

His record against NZ is also poor - but then the 80s were very good years for Hadlee.

All in all, this is a surprise.

How does a guy manage to play 78 Tests for his country in the modern era while averaging only 35.55.

It's not like he was an outstanding captain or anything. (He captained in 23 of those Tests).

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:47 am

One of the reasons for this being a surprise for me is that I had a blackout period between 1988-1998.
I couldn't follow much cricket during this time.
This was also the period in which Gatting played the last 20 Tests of his career, when his average dropped from 40 to 35.
Just before this, he'd done quite well, so the last impression I had of him was of a fairly solid batsman.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:12 am

raja wrote:Another surprise today.

The stats of Mike Gatting.

I always thought he ended his career with an average of 42-44 but it's only 35.55!!!

That's below average for a pure batsman (he used to bowl the odd over, but that hardly counts).

I remember him having a poor start to his career but I also remember him getting plenty of runs against India, including a double hundred.

When I checked now, I find that other than India, he didn't do much against any other team. On the flat Indian wickets of the 80s, when matches were largely snooze-fests, he thrived.

His record against West Indies is understandably poor. He, and others of that period (Gower, Botham, Lamb) ran into the best West Indian attack ever and only Lamb acquitted himself with any credit.

But even if you remove Gatting's stats against Windies, he averages only 38.79.

His record against NZ is also poor - but then the 80s were very good years for Hadlee.

All in all, this is a surprise.

How does a guy manage to play 78 Tests for his country in the modern era while averaging only 35.55.

It's not like he was an outstanding captain or anything. (He captained in 23 of those Tests).

Allan Lambs record is no better than Gattings, 79 tests ave 36.09. From the late 70s to early 90s England really only had 2 quality bats, Gower & Gooch. There simply was noone in English Cricket who would have done any better. I have no doubt that in that period runs were harder to come by for a variety of reasons, overall higher standard of Bowling (especially pace), more life in the wkts, smaller bats, bigger playing areas. Today the standard for a succesful Bat in test Cricket is to average 40, back in the 80s it was 35.
I find the biggest surprise average is Viv Richards only averaged 50.23, yet seemed like it should have been much higher.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:18 am

Ashraful looked like he may have finally turned the corner with the bat, scoring 190 in one of his last tests, then went and got himself banned for spot fixing, ending his career

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:56 am

Allan Lamb 36.09 (from 79 Tests) vs Mike Gatting 35.85 (from 78 Tests) would suggest they were of similar standard, especially since their career ran largely in parallel, and being from the same team, they faced largely the same opposition.

But nothing could be farther than the truth.

We need to consider who they got their runs against, and where.

Both were unfortunate that their careers entirely coincided with those of the Windies quicks. Holding, Marshall, Roberts, Garner etc.

Gatting was totally overwhelmed.

Lamb, on the other hand, was one of the very few batsmen in the world, who stood up to these quicks amidst the wreck around him. (Another name that comes to mind is Mohinder Amarnath, from India).

Lamb's average is 34.41 in 42 innings against the Windies (against a career average of 36.09). That's very creditable - getting an average of 34 runs in each innings against THAT attack!

In contrast, Gatting averages 15.17 in 17 innings against the Windies (against a career average of 35.85). He, like many others, was just blown away by Holding, Marshall & co.

Gatting's average gets a serious boost from playing against India. In those days, wickets in India were largely flat and conducive to run-making, even if it did produce boring Tests. The Indian attack, though having Kapil as its spearhead, was no great shakes once you got past Kapil.

All in all, I rate Lamb much more than Gatting. In fact, I rate Lamb at the same level as Gower and Gooch. I don't think the opposition ever felt comfortable if Lamb was at the crease.

----

To your other point about averages....

I think today 45+ is expected from a quality batsman. 50+ is still a wow but we're seeing more batsmen flirt with that average, even if they fall just a bit short.

In the 80s, if you had a fair number of Windies Tests in your cv, 40+ would be a creditable average. :-)

Coming to Viv, his career tapered off after 1988 (in fact, I think the decline might have started even earlier - probably when Lloyd retired and Viv took over as captain).

His avg was 53.37 after 94 Tests; ended up as 50 after 121 Tests.

But Viv was never about stats or averages. Am sure if he'd ended with a sub-50 average, he couldn't have cared less. :-)

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:25 am

Just checked again.

Viv
After 1980-1981 vs Eng: 44 Tests, averaging 62.
After 1983-84 vs Aus: 63 Tests, 55.41
After 1986-87 vs NZ: 88 Tests, 52.61

So, through the 80s, though he was still very much feared, he wasn't quite as consistent.

I remember there would be the odd sparkling innings in the midst of a run of poor scores.

In the 1970s, he was much more consistent.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 am

Great thread. Keep 'em commig.

I often refer to Viv's test batting capitulation inthe 1980s as compared to 1970's but this thread has the potential to unearth some further gems.

1980s batting average of 35 is a modern day 40 is influenced probably due to Zim and Bangladesh is a common argument with merit:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/423412.html

Shakib and Mustafizur and less Zimbo tests may prove different. I don't rate the bigger bats argument, but shorter boundaries at a lot of grounds are a fact to be acknowledged as well.
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:53 am

You can't use Zimbabwe as an example for averages, they have played what? 20 tests in the last 10 years at most and 1/2 of them were against Bangladesh, any record against them will not influence any averages.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:05 am

...
Last edited by Paddles on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 am

Mick180461 wrote:You can't use Zimbabwe as an example for averages, they have played what? 20 tests in the last 10 years at most and 1/2 of them were against Bangladesh, any record against them will not influence any averages.


Course I can. And I did. And Zimbabwe and Bangladesh combined have influenced the averages post 2000 as shown by the data in the link.

If you want to say Zimbabwe is less statistically significant due to less matches in the last 10 years - that is relevant. But it doesn't change most batsmen in 2000's averaged over 40 when incl their matches with Bangladesh when in 80s 90s 70s batsman averaged mid 30s. And it doesn't change the fact that many modern batsmen (think retired but averaging over 45 or 50 that set our modern impression of averages like Sachin, Sanga, Dravid, MoYo, Inzi, Ponting, Hayden, etc) have played against Zimbabwe prior to the period of less test matches before your 10 year period. And it doesn't change the fact that Bangladesh are playing more.

Read the link. Read raja's post. Think. Reply. Batting averages post 2000 are higher than previous 50-60-70-80-90's. Take Bangladesh and Zimbabwe out of the equation, it drops back down, not all the way, but significantly. (I wish someone to do a statistical analysis of home and away runs to see how independent umpiring has influenced things if at all). Smaller boundaries are probably unavoidable as a fact if analyzed - less 3's and more 4's being scored.
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby raja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:55 pm

Many have milked Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Although, to be fair, Zimbabwe was a reasonably good side in the 90s - it is only after all the politics got into their cricket, that they became true minnows.

For example, they even beat India in a Test in Harare (Dravid got a fine hundred, but in vain).

There are a few exceptions.

Overall, Sachin's average (53.78) is higher than Lara's (52.88) and ABDV's (50.46).
But take out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and he averages 51.01 to Lara's 52.53 and ABDV's 51.32.

It's probably a bit tricky to compare with ABDV because Bangladesh today are a good side at home.
We probably need to look at Bangladesh pre-2015 and Zimbabwe post-2005.
But I don't know how to fit that in.

Anyway, here are the stats:

Here, all opposition (including Bangladesh and Zimbabwe)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/conten ... 23646.html


Here, excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe
------------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting


Excluding just Bangladesh
--------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Boycs » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:05 pm

raja wrote:Another surprise today.

The stats of Mike Gatting.

I always thought he ended his career with an average of 42-44 but it's only 35.55!!!

That's below average for a pure batsman (he used to bowl the odd over, but that hardly counts).

I remember him having a poor start to his career but I also remember him getting plenty of runs against India, including a double hundred.

When I checked now, I find that other than India, he didn't do much against any other team. On the flat Indian wickets of the 80s, when matches were largely snooze-fests, he thrived.

His record against West Indies is understandably poor. He, and others of that period (Gower, Botham, Lamb) ran into the best West Indian attack ever and only Lamb acquitted himself with any credit.

But even if you remove Gatting's stats against Windies, he averages only 38.79.

His record against NZ is also poor - but then the 80s were very good years for Hadlee.

All in all, this is a surprise.

How does a guy manage to play 78 Tests for his country in the modern era while averaging only 35.55.

It's not like he was an outstanding captain or anything. (He captained in 23 of those Tests).


What also surprised me about Gatting was his domestic stats, he was a machine. Average 49.52 over 23 years with 94 centuries.

He murdered spin bowling, which is always another surprise given his build. Averaged over 55 against India. And as captain for his 23 Tests his average is 44. But yes, a start contrast between Test and FC statistics otherwise. Averaged 57 under Gower; averaged over 100 in Tests in 1985, and solid forties averages for the two years after 1985 and 37 in 1984, that but otherwise didn't average over 30 between 1978 and 1995.

Trying to get statsguru to tell me what he averaged against spin bowling but can't work it out.

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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:02 pm

BoyCaught30 wrote:
raja wrote:Another surprise today.

The stats of Mike Gatting.

I always thought he ended his career with an average of 42-44 but it's only 35.55!!!

That's below average for a pure batsman (he used to bowl the odd over, but that hardly counts).

I remember him having a poor start to his career but I also remember him getting plenty of runs against India, including a double hundred.

When I checked now, I find that other than India, he didn't do much against any other team. On the flat Indian wickets of the 80s, when matches were largely snooze-fests, he thrived.

His record against West Indies is understandably poor. He, and others of that period (Gower, Botham, Lamb) ran into the best West Indian attack ever and only Lamb acquitted himself with any credit.

But even if you remove Gatting's stats against Windies, he averages only 38.79.

His record against NZ is also poor - but then the 80s were very good years for Hadlee.

All in all, this is a surprise.

How does a guy manage to play 78 Tests for his country in the modern era while averaging only 35.55.

It's not like he was an outstanding captain or anything. (He captained in 23 of those Tests).


What also surprised me about Gatting was his domestic stats, he was a machine. Average 49.52 over 23 years with 94 centuries.

He murdered spin bowling, which is always another surprise given his build. Averaged over 55 against India. And as captain for his 23 Tests his average is 44. But yes, a start contrast between Test and FC statistics otherwise. Averaged 57 under Gower; averaged over 100 in Tests in 1985, and solid forties averages for the two years after 1985 and 37 in 1984, that but otherwise didn't average over 30 between 1978 and 1995.

Trying to get statsguru to tell me what he averaged against spin bowling but can't work it out.


It won't. At best you'll get the innings he was dismissed by spin and the average of those, which of course is utterly useless for how many runs he scored off seam as against spin per dismissal.
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Re: Stats surprises

Postby Paddles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:11 pm

raja wrote:Many have milked Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Although, to be fair, Zimbabwe was a reasonably good side in the 90s - it is only after all the politics got into their cricket, that they became true minnows.

For example, they even beat India in a Test in Harare (Dravid got a fine hundred, but in vain).

There are a few exceptions.

Overall, Sachin's average (53.78) is higher than Lara's (52.88) and ABDV's (50.46).
But take out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and he averages 51.01 to Lara's 52.53 and ABDV's 51.32.

It's probably a bit tricky to compare with ABDV because Bangladesh today are a good side at home.
We probably need to look at Bangladesh pre-2015 and Zimbabwe post-2005.
But I don't know how to fit that in.

Anyway, here are the stats:

Here, all opposition (including Bangladesh and Zimbabwe)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/conten ... 23646.html


Here, excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe
------------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting


Excluding just Bangladesh
--------------------------------
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting


That's very generous to say reasonably good. Andy Flower was world class if not ATG (ATG for me). Heath Streak was good but hardly in Chris Cairns mold as an allrounder. Heath played 65 tests between 1993 and 2005 of which 8 were won and 37 lost. No non-minnow team would be happy with those results.

They beat India twice at home, Pakistan once at home and away, and 4 wins over Bangladesh.

How weak were Zimbo bowlers?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=wickets;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

Streak - daylight -the rest. In fact - Zimbabwe cricket fans probably wish those bowling averages were their batsmen batting averages and it includes tail end wickets - no top 7 batsmen filtering.
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